A brief word on Dawkins and the scientific method: First, I do respect this man's capabilities as a scientist. The man is Oxford trained and is vastly influential in genetic and evolutionary biology. However, when he departs from science into the realm of religious debate he seems to forget the very objectivity and consideration that make the scientific method work.
I responded to someone in a comment box that I thought Dawkins was deficient in his consideration of the other side of the God question. He has not read Thomas Aquinas, for example, or any of the other philosophical heavy-weights (Aquinas really was a heavy-weight) supporting a theistic world-view. His response is that he doesn't have to, that the opposing view is so ridiculous that it doesn't bear examination. One response of his was to point out that we hardly need to read the works of leprechaunologists in order to dismiss a belief in leprechauns.
I disagree.
Or, I should say, I would agree that Dawkins doesn't need to study "leprechaunology" unless the majority of humanity for the vast majority of human existence believed in leprechauns. I would have to disagree with Dawkins and insist that we look more closely if the belief in leprechauns had become the basis of various moral systems and legal codes. I would disagree if millions alive today claimed that faith in leprechauns had changed their lives for the better, or if belief in leprechauns had become inspiration for much of the world's best art.
If all of these things were true, that the belief in leprechauns was widespread and deeply important to people, I might still simply dismiss it like the old atheists would, content in my personal freedom from the wee folk. But Dawkins doesn't do that; the new atheist isn's satisified with his own personal state. The new atheist needs to prove it to others. And if I, like Dawkins, were trying to prove that leprechauns didn't exist, and that belief in leprechauns was foolish, it would be incumbent on me to at least look at the real beliefs of these faerie-worshippers in order to properly engage them. And further, if I then claimed that belief in leprehcauns was a major cause of war and suffering, if I claimed that teaching children about leprechauns amounted to child-abuse then I might have a responsibility to respond to the objections of my detractors.
This sort of glib leprechaun statement is such a dodge. That sort of belief, in fairies, is so harmless and risible that it doesn't rate a real debate. But then, you wouldn't write books about the "Leprechaun Delusion" if it weren't worthy of debate, would you? So treating the whole theistic mindset, whether Christian or Jew or otherwise, as if it equates with childhood fantasy, is not a sincere attempt at engaging in a debate. And Dawkins has engaged these systems in debate, so the question still remains: how does he respond to Aquinas or the many others who have presented reasonable cases for the belief in God?
Dawkins is primarily a scientist. He's the one who went out on a limb and proposed his theory that runs counter to the Christian theory. But he attempts to do so without seriously examining the Christian body of work on the matter, without inquiring about our intellectual methods (and they do exist.)
If nothing else, it is Dawkins' stature as a heavy-weight scientist that places him in a situation where we have to criticize his objectivity. He's so personally certain of this thing that he refuses to look into it, not even to further the debate, equating all those who oppose him as participating in a childish delusion. And it's that personal certainty that's the problem; it's not at all scientific.
This all in itself doesn't constitute an argument, nor does it touch on the substance of what theistic philosophers would argue if Dawkins were to read them. It is simply an opener to suggest the possibility of a gap in Dawkins thinking.
20 comments:
Alright, this point isn't solely towards Richard Dawkins, and I am sure that I am not alone in voicing this opinion.
Science and religion simply do not mix. One counters the other, so it is impossible to put them together. When one joins a religion, they are not looking for concrete proof that they are doing what is right, they have already made their decision regarding what is right. Members of a religion are not searching for proof to find the truth, they have already found what they believe to be the truth within themselves.
Dawkins states that religion is the cause of so many world problems, including war. Imagine the following:
If science were to completely disprove a specific religion to the point that there would be no argument to support the religion, what would become of the world? Entire cultures would be destroyed for one, but Dawkins says that religions existing is the cause of war. What if a religion was disproved? The world would become one of chaos, and nothing could turn us back at that point.
I'd also like to point out that Dawkins, in my opinion, is a heretic. He is a scientist blaming war and hatred on religion. I do not know a ton about the man, but I do know that science has been the cause of many wars, all much more threatening than those caused by religious misdirection. I say misdirection only because I believe that no religion truly asks for its community to terrorize or start wars, it is only the small portion of radicals who choose to do so and therefore are taking the words of their religion with misdicrection and misinformation.
(In my last paragraph I said that Dawkins is a heretic, I meant to say hypocrite. My mistake.)
Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind.
--Albert Einstein
For Dawkins to dismiss one side of God debate as childish just demonstrates his lack of scientific inquisitiveness. Isn't science about proof and proving things false? Dawkins isn't proving anything by his lack of argument. By not making an argument, he thinks he's making one. However, that wreaks of pacifism. Obviously there is room for both science and religion in this world.
Let's face it. Dawkins is a respected individual for his knowledge about a certain subject. However, because he is an expert in one matter doesn't even come close to making him an authority in other matters in which he knows very little. Above all, I think Richard Dawkins is an author who is trying to sell books by being sensational and appealing to a certain segment if people within society. The title of his book is simple and to the point. "The God Delusion" is a short, hard-hitting title that instantly gets both believers and non-believers alike to pick up the book and at the very least give the back cover a read.
The fact that we're debating about him is proof of his success.
I will not argue your first paragraph Mr. Crosbie, I think it is obvious that we do not agree on that point and I don't think we will end up doing so.
I do however agree with your second point.
The true reason for this comment is because I would like to add one quote that I have always found very interesting and that fits very nicely in support of what I have already said:
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Science and religion simply do not mix."
Ben, I hope to convince you that this is a mistake before long.
;)
I do believe science can blend with religion. If you take a look at the fields of advanced physics especially those concerning the study of the universe. Some of these areas have found peculiar phenomena that really has no logic explanation at all, that some how points to a higher power.
Johnson, you know I respect you, but if you can honestly convince me and that science and religion do not counter eachother than I can die happy.
The concepts don't work together and, morally, religion shouldn't need science to prove anything.
The thing is is that these “reasonable cases” for the belief in god are practically the same as the cases for childhood fantasies like lepercaums or for mythology and invisible pink unicorns. They only explain how a being could exist while there’s still nothing that isn't anecdotal that points to their existence.
The arguments put out by Thomas Aquinas are no different. The Five Ways to prove God’s existence are archaic and do not provide any suitable argument for the existence of god, they only explain how its existence could be possible. He says that because we don’t understand the cause of something it must be because of a god. He says that nothing can be the cause of itself however he then says there must be one exception… God. Then he says that life can’t begin except from other life or existence. Again, just because we don’t know or understand how a phenomenon is possible doesn’t mean it isn’t. He says anything that can be categorized has degrees and there must be an ultimate perfection to these things. There can be different degrees of perfection but the decider of what is perfect can only be the individual and because individuals decide themselves what is perfect there are discrepancies or degrees between what is seen to be perfection. A god is just another one of these subjective things that people can see to be perfection or the highest degree of good. He says there is a natural ordering to things which has a cause. That doesn’t require for the existence of a sentient being or god, it only means that everything has its own intrinsic properties in relation with itself and all the other matter that exists.
Keith said:
"The thing is is that these “reasonable cases” for the belief in god are practically the same as the cases for childhood fantasies like lepercaums or for mythology and invisible pink unicorns."
You're making the same blind and *unsubstantiated* assertion as Dawkins, Keith. IF you insist on saying that the philosophical underpinnings of my personal faith are NO better than those of a child believing in leprechauns or unicorns then you SHOULD consider explaining exactly how that is so. The fact that these beliefs are important to people, if nothing else, should be cause for you to consider more carefully what sorts of silly things you write.
Or, to put it a bit more plainly: You believe that theism is akin to believing in fuzzy pink unicorns? How, exactly? And a glib but circular "Because both are silly" does NOT constitute an argument.
But other than that, Keith, thanks. And why did you miss class today?
:)
One more note: Aquinas' "Five" proofs, as presented in many beginning texts, aren't given a very good chance. The Platonic Ideals, for example are logical but imply a particular sort of universe. But if nothing else, the argument of First Cause should at least strike a note of plausibility.
I'm sorry, did the Irish come up with a Summa Mythologica while I was out? Are there five logical proofs for leprechauns? Are there three for pink unicorns? Anyone? My apologies, Keith, but I know you and you deserve this.
Sorry I missed your class. I was getting my picture taken.
Both a god and invisible pink unicorns have around the same amount of evidence pointing to their existence as each other. I know there is a lot of works done concerning how it is possible for a god or gods to exist by theologians of ALL religions, however these works can only explain how a god could exist. They don’t give us anything empirical which can demonstrate the existence of what they claim. I can just as well pull out a copy of the Communist Manifesto and claim that Communism CAN work as a theologian can explain how God CAN exist.
The human imagination can think up a great many things that can seem plausible but actually are not in fact true. Humans have no built in baloney detector to detect these conceits so it is difficult for us to discern what is true or not based on the information we have. For matters in which we have absolutely no solid evidence, determining the truth becomes impossible. Outside of human perception, anecdotal evidence and written imaginings, there's nothing that show the existence of a deity or invisible pink unicorns.
keith, how would you know they were pink if these same unicorns are invisible?
I'd like to give you this argument Keith:
They have been able to prove that, on the planet earth, unicorns do not, nor have they ever existed. You can also trace its beginnings back to barbies and pretty little dolls.
Can you prove, beyond a doubt that religion does not exist? Can you pinpoint the exact point in history where you believe religion was "made up" to satisfy the human mind?
I rest my case.
i don't think unicorns are that easy to pinpoint when people decided to start agrguing whether they exist or not. either way, they're very trig, and most likely laughing at us while we pathetic mortals debate.
"Can you prove, beyond a doubt that religion does not exist?"
I never said religion doesn't exist. Unquestionably it does. We know it does because there are religious texts which have been carefully documented and recorded over the years. What I said is that there is nothing substantial pointing to the existence of any deity. I will reconcile that equally there is nothing that points to the non-existence of a deity, deities or invisible pink unicorns but the burden of proof remains on the party making the claim of something's verity, not the party challenging it.
"Can you pinpoint the exact point in history where you believe religion was "made up" to satisfy the human mind?"
Around the year 3000 BC Krishna was born which lit the spark for Hinduism. http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-upanisads/vedic-archeology.html Abraham, the father of Judaism, lived around the years 1500-2000 BC.
http://www.answers.com/topic/abraham
But humans have been around for much longer than that. Scientists hold that humans branched off from chimpanzees around 6 million years ago and 10,000 years ago is where anthropologists believe humans first switched from being hunter gatherers to farmers and city dwellers. The first human civilizations came about around 6000 BC in Anatolia (today Turkey proper), in Mespotamia (modern day Iraq) around 4000 BC and around 3000 BC in the Indus Valley (modern day Pakistan).
Keith, you're still missing the point. You cannot shoot down the existance of a deity without substantial proof. There is no concrete evidence supporting such existance, but there is no evidence whatsover proving its non-existance.
I am not arguing against what you said, I am simply saying that you so willingly shoot down the definite existance of a deity but do not seem to disagree with the non-existance of a deity for the same reasons as you do the first part. That may have been confusing, I'm just saying that you cannot use one opinion or "evidence" to support one theory, and then completely ignore the same "evidence" when countering previous.
I don't need proof of the non-existence of something to not believe in it if there's nothing that points to its existence in the first place.
If someone is charged for murder in a court of law but there is absolutely no evidence that he did the crime would you assume he is guilty? You wouldn't because you don't need to prove someone's innocence if there is nothing that says they're guilty. All the same, you don't need to prove something doesn't exist if there's nothing that says it exists in the first place. Nothing empirical, that is, opinions, anecdotal evidence and spin do not count as evidence.
Keith; You can do better than this, particularly since we've talked about this in class. Empiricism is flawed and doesn't allow for logical/rational proofs. And your analogy of the court is flawed in that the legal method is developed to be practical instead of perfect. You could not, for example, have a trial of whether God exists. There is no evidence one way OR the other, and so no judge would see the case.
To be fair Keith, your entire legal debate was backwards. If there is no proof showing that, without a doubt, the suspect committed the crime, then he is let off the hook. If there is no proof; he didn't do wrong. You expressed the entire argument the wrong way.
How about actually countering my arguments instead of just dismissing them as "flawed" and "backwards". The way you guys responded to my comment shows that you ain't got nothing. You can't prove God exists in the court of law because there's NOTHING ZERO NADA of any substance that is pointing to it existing. With our senses and brains we can at least determine that something is real in our world with pretty good certainty but with god we have nothing to base it on. NOT ANYTHING. My argument isn't backwards. Read it. Come get sum of it raw/this be how we roll on 5-04/ beat down yo do'/keep coming back for 'mo. Ya what you finna say. Please if you want me to keep responding then keep the ad hominems to yourself and the spin as well. Until you can do that I'm going to bow out of this.
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